Ballistics for Excel Forum

BfX => General discussion => Topic started by: admin on August 18, 2011, 01:38:05 PM

Title: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on August 18, 2011, 01:38:05 PM
Good news, at least for me.

after some hefty programming I managed to extend BfX with the ability work with custom drag tables.

In the figure you see how it will work. To the right you see the custom drag table, in this case one for a Lapua bullet and supplied via Lapua's QuickTime software.

To the left you see a comparision of the results.

After I have removed some bugs, an update of the getting started documentation and rigorous testing I will release the new addin within a week or two.
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 16, 2011, 08:00:19 AM
Impressive! This is good news!
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 17, 2011, 08:06:53 AM
This works now :)  ( that is not clear from the first post here )
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 17, 2011, 08:51:59 AM
I can't get this to work. Could you explain what values drag table range must include... What is lapus's quick time sofware?
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 17, 2011, 03:49:36 PM
The explanations is in the gettingstarted workbook that you can download at http://www.bfxyz.nl/docs/bfxdownloads.shtml (http://www.bfxyz.nl/docs/bfxdownloads.shtml)
One of the last worksheets in that workbook.

Lapua's QT: http://www.lapua.com/en/customer-center/lapua-ballistics/download-lapua-edition.html
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 17, 2011, 03:50:40 PM
once you have a dragtable put together, give it an Excel name ...

alternatively, send me the spreadsheet and i'll will have a look.
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 17, 2011, 06:34:57 PM
It works now... Thanks. It was m (3,2) that I was missing. Does the program linearly interpolate drag coefficient between given values? What is the conversion coefficient used when mach number is converted to m/s (ICAO conditions)?
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 17, 2011, 08:40:33 PM
The Siacci methods needs a parametrization in the form of d= 1461.5128 * a*v^b (or something like that, i have to look it up) where d is the drag function and v is  the (metric) velocity. I calculate with the aid of some logarithms the constants a and b from the tabulated d's and their metric velocities. This is done for the ICAO velocity of sound. One could say that there is a powerlaw  interpolation deployed, although the powerlaw behaves almost linearly in the interval

Presently the only way to correct for temperatures other than ICAO is through adaption of the BC (with bfx_c), there is now no way to communicate the temperature from the excel "space"  to the procedure that uses the mach value to compute drag. At the moment it would require to incorporate the temperature in every BfX function - making them  awkward. I am expecting to introduce a "table" (a range in excel)  for bc. This table contains then the bc, temperature, humidity and pressure, making BfX_C superflous yet keeping the formulas simple. This would be a rather straightforward thing to do now the ground breaking work with the drag tables has been done. However, I find the 6dof implementation much more attractiveto work on - this will happen before X mas I hope. Before that, however, I want to implement neural network software in Excel. Not only do I need it for something else, I think it can be handy for 6dof speedup and - in a  far future - the implementation of software that does the aerodynamics on a more elementary level than what we do with bc's and tables.

the m (3, 2) I added later, and was not included in the screenshot of the prototype you saw on the forum. (However I have to include it in BfX_help() )

For what are you using the drag functions?

Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 18, 2011, 07:59:13 AM
For what are you using the drag functions?

Lapua's functions for lapua bullets. Customised drag functions for subsonic airgun and rimfire projectiles..

m/s -> mach number conversion is useful when creating customised drag function from velocity / range information (chronograph data).
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 18, 2011, 09:37:59 AM
do you have such a dragfunction for R50?
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 18, 2011, 10:57:49 AM
Do you mean RWS R50 22 lr. ammo ? I have nothing yet... First I have to work with CED to make sure that measured velocities are accurate enough.

And secondly I think drag coefficient curve is gun depended at least for some degree. This is the hard part when using subsonic lead projectiles. This means that everyone should calculate their own gun/ammo specific bcs for rimfire and airgun bullets.
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 18, 2011, 08:47:22 PM
McCoy made a complete ballistic study of the R50 and the Eley Tenex. Interesting literature ...
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 18, 2011, 09:07:58 PM
Link?
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 18, 2011, 09:16:31 PM
google for AERODYNAMIC CHARACTERISTICS OF CALIBER .22 LONG RIFLE MATCH AMMUNITION
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 19, 2011, 09:09:05 AM
Thanks!! That is some good stuff. It seems that I may have been wrong with that gun depended drag at least with 22 lr. However study suggests that there is significant differences on drag between different ammo. And hardness of the lead has an effect on bullet drag due to deformation on firing. Study does not fully prove that different barrels could not deform bullets significantly different levels...

Do you think that those drag curves are defined in ICAO conditions?

Edit:  I took McCoy's measured Cd data and made my own fit. Guess what... It's a pretty good match with RA4 drag function. There was very little data available at the mach >1 area and this might be the reason why curves are different at that area.

(http://i.imgur.com/bD4ud.jpg)
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 19, 2011, 03:08:21 PM
Is there a way to use drag tables like BC formats (G1, G2, G5...) when using Bfx functions?

For examble function:

=BfX_Cd(A1;A2) works fine

if A1 = "range" and A2 = "bc format" .

But if A2 = "named range (drag table)" it doesn't work.

Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 19, 2011, 05:28:01 PM
yes, that works, probably you have a typo somewhere. Look at the bottom of the included worksheet. Tonight I will reflect on your earlier posts
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 19, 2011, 05:47:32 PM
Yes it works if A2 is named range but it doesn't if A2 is excel cell reference to the cell which includes the name of the named range.. Okay, let the pic do the explaining  ;):

http://i.imgur.com/GGXhg.jpg
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 19, 2011, 08:26:50 PM
That is easy: =bfx_cd(A1;INDIRECT(A2)) or bfx_cd(A1;INDIRECT($A$2))
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 19, 2011, 08:55:24 PM
regarding the metrological conditions of McCoys .22LR work:

- there is no clue in the article, hence it must be the default one of the early nineties
- I have no idea if they adopted ICAO by then (and used the US ARMY Standard Metro instead).

regarding deformation - that indeed is influenced by the rifle, i guess by the friction (surface conditions in barrel) at ingnition and the barrel length
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: mman on September 19, 2011, 09:46:30 PM
I hoped you would offer something else instead... Indirect works fine as long as the results are not used via vba code. When they are vba code calculation time will be multiplied...


About McCoy... First I thought it must be metro but there is one mention of ICAO conditions in the article (IV conclusions, point 4).
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 19, 2011, 11:21:05 PM
... until now anything which smells like "state" is omitted in BfX. Storing and managing the relationship between a string and a cell reference is stateful and will lead to a headache (which I will get also with the 6dof). I rather am in favor of letting vba run an additional second...
Title: Re: progress with custom drag tables
Post by: admin on September 20, 2011, 09:29:17 AM
yes, indeed, he mentions ICAO. ICAO must be usance in nineties already.